American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled
Started On:
9/6/2006
Started By:
Andrea Arden (NY)
Description:
From U.S. Newswire
The training tactics featured on Cesar Millan's "Dog Whisperer" program are inhumane, outdated and improper, according to a letter sent yesterday to the
National Geographic Channel by American Humane, the oldest national organization protecting children and animals.
In the letter, American Humane, which works to raise public awareness about responsible pet ownership and reduce the euthanasia of unwanted pets, expressed dismay over the "numerous inhumane training techniques" advocated by Cesar Millan on "Dog Whisperer."
Several instances of cruel and dangerous treatment - promoted by Millan as acceptable training methods - were documented by American Humane, including one in which a dog was partially asphyxiated in an episode. In this instance, the fractious dog was pinned to the ground by its neck after first being "hung" by a collar incrementally tightened by Millan. Millan's goal - of subduing a fractious animal - was accomplished by partially cutting off the blood supply to its
Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled brain.
The letter requests that National Geographic stop airing the program immediately and issue a statement explaining that the tactics featured on the program are inhumane, and it encourages National Geographic to begin developing programming that sets a positive example by featuring proper, humane animal training. In its letter, American Humane said: "We believe that achieving the goal of improving the way people interact with their pets would be far more successful and beneficial for the National Geographic Channel if it ceased sending the contradictory message that violent treatment of animals is acceptable."
"As a forerunner in the movement towards humane dog training, we find the excessively rough handling of animals on the show and inhumane training methods to be potentially harmful for the animals and the people on the show," said the letter's author, Bill Torgerson, DVM, MBA, who is vice president of Animal Protection Services for American Humane. "It also does a disservice to all the show's vi
Torgerson noted that the safety of a woman and her German shepherd were jeopardized in one episode by the use of an electric shock collar, which forced the tormented dog to redirect its aggression at its owner, biting her arm. "Furthermore, the television audience was never told that Mr. Millan was attempting to modify the dog's behavior by causing pain with the shock collar," he said.
For more information about humane training techniques, please visit http://www.americanhumane.org
Though I'm not a big support of Cesar Milan - indeed, I can't think of a situation where I would ever look to him for advice - it's not like he's doing anything novel. And I believe he probably thinks his methods are in the best interests of dogs and owners; it just that he's wrong.
If American Humane is one of those organizations that decries the use, under any circumstances, of pinch collars or e-collars I think I'm likely to lump them into the same category that I place Cesar, which is worthless training advice.
I'm sure Cesar gets some good results, though I suspect he gets those results by accident; certainly not because his training philosophy is correct.
Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Andrea, it's pretty clear that you have some wicked fantasies about this guy to go out of your way to slam him every chance you can...I bet we can find a lot more people unhappy with your service than his. And you call yourself a professional...shame on you.
FourPaws (NY) 9/10/2006 8:52:19 AM
Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Shame on her? Why? Because she posted something here that is helping ot create awareness of a potentially harmful situation to animals? And did you not read it? She didn't write it, it was from American Humane. Why would you bother to respond to it personally attacker the poster. If you don't agree with what American Humane and a LOT of others are saying about this guy then say that. That's one thing. But to personally attack someone for posting in a polite way to make people aware of something important? Shame on YOU!
radpup (NY) 9/10/2006 11:12:37 AM
Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Shame on her because she is in-line with radicalism...This guy successfully rehabilitates dogs that most trainers wouldn't even dare touch...Why waste time trying to knock him down?...She should mind your own business and train some dogs for change. Cesar isn't doing anytyhing new...he's not magic...but he is talented and he can HANDLE dogs and more importantly he can FIX dogs. You don't have to like him, but to say that what he is doing is inhumane is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!!! I Consider this just another example of the DUMBING DOWN OF AMERICA!
being*dog (NY) 9/10/2006 12:01:26 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Radpup are you just flaming the list? Let's recap again..1 .This was an article on U.S. Newswire. The Humane Society NOT Andrea called the techniques inhumane. 2. Cesar nearly KILLED a dog (damaged trachea, lungs filled with blood, severe bruising to hind quarters from multiple accidents on treadmill).
I'll go ahead and say it - that's inhumane! 3. If you read posts on this list - most people get upset by a scratch their dog receives at daycare or in the dog run - I think most want to hear this information. 4. The only dumbing down that is occurring is tolerance for techniques put at least one dog in intensive care under the name of training.
It's your dog - you can make that call.
Another problem with our culture is that people tend to believe everything they read. It's pretty sad if someone has to refer to the NY Times as a source of truth...but again...POLITICS...
I am a firm believer that whatever works to get your dog trained! If you have to correct my dog...GO FOR IT...More people should correct their dogs...then we wouldn't have the problem with these dogs in the first place!!! I can't wait to see what all of these no rules/boundry children are like when they're adults either...by then it might be time to retire and move to a more responsible country.
Is Millan's methodology valid? Well, since his explanation that you have to be "alpha" to control your dog's "pack psychology" makes no sense, then no, it's not valid. There is no such thing as an alpha wolf in a real wolf pack. So where does Millan's "psychology" come from?
Some people seem to enjoy hurting dogs. Some of them even con people into paying them good money to inflict pain on these helpless animals. Cesar doesn't seem to get a kick out of it the way the Monks of New Skete and say, Brian Kilcommons or Uncle Matty do. But he seems very intent on being in control at all times, which isn't necessary if your dog is trained properly.
And I agree with AA and B*D that while you may feel that harsh corrections will "get the dog trained" such methods always have negative side-effects.
LC
LuvMyLeeLee (NY) 9/11/2006 12:48:56 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Thank You radpup . I do not blame Andrea, for posting information that many might be interested in. However, I see that I created a stir. Still, I love Cesar Millan. Many of the " non believers", I will assume have NOt read his book. THere is soo much more in there than his Tv Show.A friend of mine just scheduled a play date, and they specifically told her " no pit bulls" . This saddens me. For us to discriminate an entire breed because of several un educated dog owners. Cesar shows us that pit bulls are not " born to be aggressive".. and so much more. Everyone does not have to agree on Cesar.. but many professional trainers have recommend people to "put down" their powerful breeds.. while cesar helps us understand them. LOVE that guy!
Before getting my pup, I was enthralled with CM. I also read his book. BUT, I also read books from other trainers and talked to other trainers, and in the end, took some information from everyone. And as much as my Type A personality hates to admit it, the whole pack theory does not make sense when it comes to our dogs. LCK has been pretty eloquent in explaning this.
What CM says that DOES make sense is that we do have to be calm with our dogs, that we have to be consistent in their training, that we need to exercise our dogs, and we should not give up on our dogs.
It's fine that you love Cesar Milan -- just don't love him blindly.
V.
Dot78 (NY) 9/12/2006 4:44:13 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Anyone that knows anything about pit bulls knows that, you don't even have to be a dog trainer for that matter. I think CM has helped make people more aware that their dogs do need exercise and training, but its a shame his methods are not best suited. There are ill side effects when you use aversives and why jerk your dog around when there exists better, more fruitful ways to teach your dog. My pets and I are a team, willing compliance is what I want, not a relationship based on fear and stress. I want to be respected not feared.
As far as radpup's replies...there may be some underlying issues that have nothing to do with dog training there, lets stick to the dogs :).
LuvMyLeeLee (NY) 9/14/2006 9:39:27 AM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled It's clearly your opinion that I am loving him blindly. I feel his pack theory makes total sense to me. Dogs do not look at us as "mommy "or "Daddy". They do not distinguish between mother, daughter, sister. I guess that is just another way people try to humanize their dogs.
1) No one wolf takes the lead when they travel. The breeding female leads slightly more often than the breeding male. The offspring take turns in the lead when their parents are tired.
2) There is never any fuss over who gets to go thru a door first.
3) No pack member ever throws another over on its back in an "alpha roll".
4) Dominant behaviors are rare and only take place over how to disburse food for the young. The breeding female usually wins such conflicts by acting non-threatening (i.e., "submissive") toward the male. So in a real pack, submissive, not dominant behavior is the best solution.
5) The pack only exists to enable wolves to hunt large prey by working in harmony. Wolves who don't hunt large prey don't form packs.
Lee Charles Kelley (NY) 9/14/2006 11:51:07 AM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Millan's "pack theory" may appeal to you, but it's not based on the facts, it's based on a complete misunderstanding of real pack behavior. And his view is much more based on human social dynamics than on the way a real pack operates.
It's difficult for most people to get how a pack can operate without a leader because that's how human society operates. What is the single most important thing for a wolf's survival? Food. How do they get that food? They hunt it and kill it. Their instincts are geared for hunting. If one wolf has better hunting skills, the others will follow, not because he's leading them, but because he has the most direct access to prey.
How do our dogs get their food? In a bowl. Yet their instincts are still geared for hunting. That's why your dog shakes his head around when he's got a toy in his mouth. He's killing it. That's why a dog chases a tennis ball or a Frisbee.
If you want the illusion of being a "pack leader" play with your dog, don't dominate him.
LCK
newfy17 (NY) 12/19/2006 10:58:04 AM
Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled I totally agree with you, I'm a Dog Trainer and I use a lot of Cesar's methods, it seems like nowadays people are being propaganized by these so called "gentle" methods. I just don't understand it, injuries occur with these "gentle" methods. It seems like these new "animal behaviorists" like to bash other trainers, pretty disgusting eh?
dynycuws (NY) 9/15/2006 12:45:37 PM
Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Radpup, you clearly didn't read Andrea's post. She didn't say anything about CM...she merely posted an article written about American Humane contacting National Geographic. And have you ever used Andrea's services? She and her staff are excellent! I smell bitter grapes...
newfy17 (NY) 12/19/2006 10:56:20 AM
Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled I totally agree with you, I'm a Dog Trainer and I use a lot of Cesar's methods, it seems like nowadays people are being propaganized by these so called "gentle" methods. I just don't understand it, injuries occur with these "gentle" methods. It seems like these new "animal behaviorists" like to bash other trainers, pretty disgusting eh?
DestinsFather (NY) 9/14/2006 2:47:25 PM
Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled While many of you are doing nothing but pointlessly arguing of whether or not you like Caesar, have you ever stopped to think about the following:
Millions of people are bitten each year by dogs. Most of them are children. These dogs are never given a second chance at life. Why did they bite in the first place? Because no one ever told them not to! No one showed them what is proper and what isnt.
Although some of the methods Cesar uses are extreme, are we all really that against it when they could be preventing a child from being bit?
A majority of the dogs that ceasr rehabilitates are last chance cases; ie: you are on death row. So if it takes something that some ppl may consider extreme to HELP them, why are you against it?
Cesar, to anyone who has the decency to open their mind, is not a dog trainer. I agree with the fact that he says "sit stay leave it down" are all commands that are created by humans, to make OUR lives easier. In nature, dogs dont give each other these commands! Cesa
DestinsFather (NY) 9/14/2006 2:51:39 PM
Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled of you who have small dogs dont think that its ok if you take your little guy out for half an hour and thats enough. Cause its not.
People are very uneducated, especially in the city, about what dogs need and what a responsibility they are.
If you notice, cesar has successfully rehabilitated hundreds of dogs. So his methods must be working. Or wait- no- maybe we should go back to the way that thousands of ppl do it- lets just beat the cr*p our of our dogs! Yea- that works right?
I think most of the ppl writing on this need to really do a little more research about dogs. You may call yourselves dog lovers, but that doesnt mean you are educated in anyway about what a dog really wants.
I support Caesar and his methods- and to tell you the truth, i think that this is somewhat pointless. Cesar has many fans and happy clients- and so if ppl (whom yes, are entitled to their own opinion) dont like it- then do us all a favor- shut off the t.v., dont read his book, and go elsewhere! I dont agree w
DestinsFather (NY) 9/14/2006 2:53:52 PM
Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled about what a dog really wants.
I support Caesar and his methods- and to tell you the truth, i think that this is somewhat pointless. Cesar has many fans and happy clients- and so if ppl (whom yes, are entitled to their own opinion) dont like it- then do us all a favor- shut off the t.v., dont read his book, and go elsewhere! I dont agree with clicker training so i dont use it. If you dont agree with cesar, then dont use his methods! case closed.
Lee Charles Kelley (NY) 9/14/2006 3:22:01 PM
Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled One of the primary problems with Cesar's methods is that they actually increase the likelihood that a dog will bite a child. It works like this: CM shows that he's the boss by acting dominant/aggressive (which he calls "calm/assertive") toward a dog. That dog learns to behave around CM because he doesn't want to suffer any more punishment. But while he now "behaves" he has negative feelings that he can't process because the source of his misbehavior hasn't been dealt with. CM has just put a lid on the pressure cooker, so to speak. The next time that dog is around someone smaller and weaker than himself (such as a child), he'll release his negativity by biting the child.
I agree that "modern" +R methods aren't very effective at solving severe behavioral problems. But you don't really solve aggression by piling on more aggression. That negative energy gets stored and has to come out in one form or another.
I hope you can see the logic and the value in what I'm saying.
LCK
dm29 (NY) 9/15/2006 9:03:56 AM
Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Why are the other trainers on here are so quick to dash down CM? His methods may not be your own, but they work for him. Have you ever tried working with a Pitt who has been trained to fight? or a 150lb Rottie who wants to take your head off, and successfuly rehabilitated them with treats and a click alone?
And why are we grouping Uncle Matty and the monks into this group? Should we put Barbara Woodhouse in this group too? Captain and Babbette Haggerty? Come on,it may not be our methods but lets not slam others on here. I may not like the way some of the other people posting here train, but I won't slam them, we do what we do and we all differ. Too bad NYC dog trainers couldn't be nicer to one another.
I say what we do in a "Calm/Assertive" manner,lol,is call on the National Geogrphic channel to do a follow up show with the clients from the show. This show should be a follow up without Mr. Milan present, and then lets judge his methods. And yes I believe that this may prove that he is not as much of a mirac
dm29 (NY) 9/15/2006 9:16:20 AM
Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled miracle worker as he says..lets se these dog behave with out him around.
Everyone has their own methods,lets not knock them. A
If a shock collar will save a dogs life then use it, but use it right. Same with all collars. Do we not think that a Halti is pain free? It scars the nose,ouch, and there are numerous neck injuies reported from them, but do we not love them?. For a good collar reference Check out "Dog Training for Dummies", by Wendy Vohlhard of the AKC, an amazing trainer, you'll be suprised, like I was that prong collars do the least amount of damage to a dogs neck, according to chiropractic vets.
Lets learn from CM, yes be calm and relaxed around your dog. He is correct when he says that our dogs need more exercise.
After we see a follow up on his clients ,and if they behave for the human companions or not, then lets judge his methods.
Good Luck with whatever path you choose.
Doug M.
You make some good points. I think the NGC *should* do follow ups on Cesar's clients. I personally know of two dogs who made a miraculous turnaround on TV then reverted to their old behaviors within a week.
As for Barbara Woodhouse, she doesn't have the same influence that Matthew "This Isn't Hurting the Dog" Margolis or the Monks of "How Hard Should You Hit Your Dog; If She Doesn't Yelp in Pain You You Haven't Hit her Hard Enough" New Skete do.
And I've said several times that there are things we can learn from Cesar Millan. But his version of pack psychology is completely and utterly wrong. And his methods are based on fear, force, and punishment.
I have worked with pit bulls and gotten to the heart of what's causing their aggression: fear. You can't cure fear by making the animal fearful, and you can't cure aggression be acting aggressive. The most you can do is control the behavior, not actually fix it.
Lee Charles Kelley (NY) 9/15/2006 9:52:56 AM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled I was once met in a doorway of a new client by a Rottweiler who was ready to tear my head off. (I think her aim was actually much lower down...) I had the owner put a leash on her and meet me in the lobby. When they got there, they found me lying on my back, holding a treat in an outstretched hand. I was "acting submissive", if you want to see it that way. As she approached me, tense, growling, I softly praised her.
She came over, sniffed me, took the treat, and we all went back upstairs. Two minutes later she was lying next to me on the couch asking for a tummy rub. I even put my fingers in her mouth she could use them as a pacifier. That was the last time she was aggressive toward anyone who came over to her apartment.
Cesar's philosophy would never have allowed him to do what I did. He would have hung the dog and thrown her into an alpha roll. That would've controlled her behavior, but it wouldn't have gotten rid of her fear, which was the source of her aggression.
LCK
PattyH (NY) 9/15/2006 1:02:24 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Lee - I've read your books and blog on Amazon. I have 5 dogs (3males&2females). Abbie frequently attacks Sadie even if Sadie is just sitting there or walking by. Sadie sometimes avoids her & other times will go after Abbie after Abbie lets her up off the floor. I have read many, many books on dog training (incl Cesar's & watch the show). I need to figure out how to makes these 2 get along (Abbie occasionally attacks one of the males as well). This forum is probably not the right place for this, but can you point me in the right direction or is there some way I can contact you outside this forum? I know you are a dog trainer and I am willing to pay for your time/expertise/advice. It isn't fair to make Sadie live her life like this. thanks
I'm sorry to hear that Abbie won't leave Sadie alone. That must be very dispiriting for you to have to deal with.
Since this thread is about Cesar Millan, let me just say that what's missing from his approach is the understanding that what all dogs want, underneath it all, is to be in harmony with one another. To me this is as evident as that the sky is blue. (Except today, when it's a dark, dark gray!) The pack instinct is about being in harmony for the purpose of hunting large prey, not conflict over who's top dog, which doesn't have a biological purpose of any kind.
Okay, as to how to solve the problem, I'd obviously need to know a lot more about the situation before I could give you any advice. However, you can call my service and leave a msg. and I'll call you back and we can talk about the situation and how to solve it. My svc. # is on my website:
www.leecharleskelley.com
Oh, and hey -- thanks for reading my books and my blog!
Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Yes, we all disagree on just about everything, this is true. I think what we do tend to ALL agree with, is that training should not be coercive and abusive (mentally/phsically). There is a big swing on this thread that CM is saving death row dogs. Shelters EVERYWHERE are saving/rehabing some pretty intense dogs. Thankfully, they are doing this with gentle more humane methods. Why? As LCK points out there is a depper, mopre comprehensive approach to truly changing the dog's behavior and this makes it so that dog is less likely to explode in it's new home. It is also important to point out that the audience and participants watching/partaking in CMs show are NOT dogs tearing off heads (poodle with grooming/handling issues, sheltie that barks at the toaster & microwave, german short hair that won't dive into the owners pool, oprah winfrey's clan of cockers, and a whole host of l.a. based celebrity clients with fresh pups). The dog that was sent to his psych center was there for FEAR of other dogs and people - it
being*dog (NY) 9/15/2006 9:42:29 AM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled The dog that was sent to his psych center was there for FEAR of other dogs and people - it wound up in intensive care. The vast majority of the public own a goofy dog who lacked some consistent training. I had a 3 lb brussels griffon puppy owner give me a speech about "calm/submissive" with a choke collar doing the whole "shh" correction for a puupy who was merely excited to see other dogs on the street.
Yes, we can certainly turn off our tvs, but it's sad that maybe some of those who can't necessarily afford training are seeing this show and perhaps thinking, "this is the way."
DestinsFather (NY) 9/15/2006 11:10:02 AM
Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Just checking back in. There is no logic in what any of you are saying!!! don't u guys see? None of you know 100% whats going on....NONE of you. And if u do- please tell me how! Do you work with cesar? Didnt think so. Honestly this is a pointless argument over opinions....no one is an expert here.
BTW: in response to my last posting: I have worked in the dog industry my whole life, so i am very aware of what i am talking about. Cesar does not cause aggression and he does not cause dogs to bite children. Thats quite a far fetched comment to make.
You guys all need to relax and understand none of us our dogs. As much as you may all like to think that you know what goes on inside their heads, you dont. So just accept that cesar is trying something else rather than conventional methods. As i said b4, if you dont like it, turn off the tv, put down the book, and go elsewhere.
DestinsFather (NY) 9/15/2006 11:14:56 AM
Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Also, just reading through the last posting before my second one, this has nothing to do with cost, and if you arent a professional, you shouldnt be doing it. CESAR IS NOT A DOG TRAINER!!! everyone keeps forgetting that. NOT A TRAINER. He is not TRAINING dogs. Regardless, hopefully you will all take a deep breath and leave it alone. And btw: shelters all around are NOT rehabilitating dogs...where did that come from? I know of one place in the city that tries to rehabilitate...thats about it. And they are not a shelter, its a foster situation.
But obviously this board in particular is just being used for the cesar-haters to get their steam off. I guess instead of being productive, just go ahead and bark about it.
A friend introduced me to the "Dog Whisperer" and I taped them and watched several of them.
Cesar says he doesn't train dogs, he trains people. And I have heard other dog trainers say this.
As a human teacher, and someone who long ago hired Andrea Arden once, I do not think we do a service to each other by flaming or whatever.
I don't want any dog to get hurt. And if a dog was hurt than I applaud someone for wanting National Geographic to do something about it.
But, I am not sure about cancelling the show.
But a response to a particular show, yes.
We are all responsible for training our dogs, just as we are responsible for training our humans.
My two goldens, do go out of our front door first. The door will slam otherwise and they are scared. I doubt this is what makes one of them bark at other dogs. I doubt that any one behavior has only one root.
But my goldens sleep through Caesar's show. And af
thunder (NY) 9/15/2006 11:30:50 AM
Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled I watch the show all the time and honestly don't think I've seen him act cruelly to a dog ever. Even if you don't agree with all his methods to me it is quite clear that he loves dogs and simply wants to help. I do think that a lot of what he says is totally valid. One of the biggest things he stresses is the importance of the walk...something so many of us dog owners are too lazy to take seriously enough. I own a chihuahua and thought she didn't need all that exercize until watching Caesar. Now that she gets her 45 minutes in teh morning and 45 minutes before bed she is the picture of good behaviour. Also, I recently got a daschund puppy, and making her wait for me to go in or out of a door first, and not allowing her to pull in front of me on her walks has really helped her manners. And the two dogs get along very well since they started walkign together every day. I agree with a lot of the people on here who say...if you don't agree don't watch. There are lots of "shelters" out there that abuse an
being*dog (NY) 9/15/2006 11:33:38 AM
Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled The methods are broadcast on TV and displayed on popular talks shows. Is there something going on behind the scenes we're missing?! These methods are very well known as they were used by trainers in the old ages! They are more "conventional" than any other method out there! I'm not sure how none of us are experts, but you working in the dog industry you're whole life makes you aware. What do you think we do? As for not being dogs and not knowing what goes on inside their heads - I absolutely agree. Which is exactly WHY i will not relentlessly punish a dog for simply being a dog and doing doggy things. I take a bahavior that is presenting at the surface (i.e. dog charging through a door and pulling it's owner) and work with the owner (in a humane, gentle manner) to teach a new behavior (sit until being released). To the contrary, what is so scary is that Cesar thinks he has the capability of jumping into the mind of a dog (using pack theory thinking) and ASSUMES the dog must be planning a coup on the owner f
being*dog (NY) 9/15/2006 11:34:14 AM
Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled To the contrary, what is so scary is that Cesar thinks he has the capability of jumping into the mind of a dog (using pack theory thinking) and ASSUMES the dog must be planning a coup on the owner for being an impulsive door chargin' goof. The "shh", must be master and restore calm submission is much more - "be the dog," babble, than those using a more modern approach. We do all need to relax and find another hobby :), but logic is flat out missing from that post.
DestinsFather (NY) 9/15/2006 12:19:46 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled No need to say logic is missing from my post- i have worked in the industry for a very long time. Im not sure what everyone does, but as i said, none of us (myself included) are experts on dogs; we ARENT dogs. i completely agree with you. Cesar does think he can jump into a dog's mind...and i think that he does get it right sometimes...but not always. As i said, no one is a dog. What i mean by everyone not being an expert is that none of us REALLY know what works and what doesnt, and why a dog responds to some things and not others. I think its fine to sound off on message boards, but i dont agree that ppl should just get on and say "oh, hes cruel". Well why? Support your theories! And u cannot use something u heard through the grapevine as support, you know what i mean? Well, regardless, i also think everyone has a different expectation of how a dog should behave and what they really need. I just believe that we shouldnt throw something out the window when we dont see everything that goes on. Good or bad- th
DestinsFather (NY) 9/15/2006 12:23:51 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Good or bad- the cameras do stop rolling, and we DONT know everything going on behind the scenes. But from what i have seen so far, it doesnt look so bad...and it looks like its working. I could be wrong, but i just dont think its fair to slam something down when you have no facts to back up your opinion (ie: choke chains are cruel. Um, give me a fact...not an opinion) Does that make sense? Or am i way off?
LuvMyLeeLee (NY) 9/15/2006 1:45:49 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Wow. Finally people who actually think like me. If you checked out my first post- It was as if everyone disagreed with Cesar.You are absolutely right! We are NOT in the minds of our dogs-- however his techniques seem to be working. He is trying different techniques besides treats and praise galore. He shows us there are different ways of showing affections. I dont know about everyone else, but until I read his book- and read the part about the mastiff murder, do you remember that? The 2 mastiffs who killed their neighbor? How many of us thought these dogs were vicious? I must say I did. I must say I bet if cesar got to them first- that would have never happend, and one of them wouldnt have to be put down. We need to start looking at the good of what he is doing. If he wasnt helping- millions of viewers would be calling,writing.. saying " Cesar helped me for tv-- but a month later my dog was back to the way he was!"
So like the person before me said-- if you do not like him- do not watch it, and dont knoc
1) Provide your dog with lots of exercise on a regular basis
2) Don't let your dog engage in dominant behavior like jumping up on people.
3) Don't confuse excitement with "happiness"
3) Animals are not just furry people
4) Don't substitute exercise with treats and affection because you're too lazy to walk your dog
5) Walk your dog. Don't let your dog walk you
6) Don't take your frustrations out on your dog. Be assertive, but calm and in control
7) Don't treat dogs like children. You'll only end up reinforcing their fears rather than providing them with comfort...regardless of your intentions
8) Powerful breeds need to be managed and respected rather than used and destroyed
I don't think anyone on this site advocates asphyxiation and dogs exercised to death. Nor does Cesar.
I do think, however, that most people would agree with the general principles that Cesar espouses.
dramuze (NY) 9/15/2006 2:48:50 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled To all the dog trainers who think that Cesar's methods are wrong, that his success is a result of lucks our pure accident, I put you to this challenge: YOU walk 40 dogs, off leash, at the same time and manage with a look to keep them behind you. YOU take a dog that is so aggressive no professionals with go near it and rehabilitate him so that he's calm and relaxed around humans and dogs in a day. I have two words for dog training professionals who call Cesar a hack and inhumane: professional jealousy. No one can do what he does, and others can only dream of gaining his celebrity.
His methods have done wonders for my dog. I have a beagle and no so-called professional would train him because they said beagles are impossible to train. After employing his methods, everyone comments on how well behaved my dog is. I've never made him submit, I don't use choke chains, but now because of Cesar he gets three hours of walking time a day, I use a backpack so he has a job, and I'm calm and assertive around him
I definitely disagree with some of Cesar's points. Here's where I agree and disagree:
1) Dogs need intense playful exercise for brief spurts, the kind that satisfies their prey drive. They do not need 4 hr walks.
2) Jumping up on people is not a dominant behavior. (Read my "Cesar's Silly Rules" thread).
3) Agreed. Many dog owners tell me their dog is acting happy when it's actually nervous or excited.
3 (rptd) It's true, animals aren't people. But CMs pack psychology isn't based on the way animals think, but the way humans do.
4) Agreed. Dogs need more playtime than cuddle time.
5) I agree with the main idea, but not the wording. I don't think of it as a battle between who's walking whom, but how to establish harmony so you can walk together.
6) I agree about not taking out your frustrations on your dog, but if you and your dog are in harmony you won't need to be assertive to control him. The dog will actually want direction from you.
7) True.
8) Also tru
Lee Charles Kelley (NY) 9/15/2006 5:02:04 PM
How to Think Like a Dog One more point, which is the main one as far as I'm concerned. People have complained that none of us can think like a dog. Monty Roberts, when told that it was impossible to think like a horse, said, "No it's not. You just have to do is dumb yourself down a few notches."
It's a matter of knowing what kinds of intelligence present themselves in the dog's behavior. It also helps to study comparative neuroanatomy plus theories of artificial intellignce and consciousness.
If that's too much for you, try this: if the dog's mind were geared toward dominant and submissive behaviors, with the dominant animal becoming the "pack leader" and controlling others, then how is that I'm able to not just control aggression in dogs like the Rottweiler I mentioned, but I am able to absolutely cure it by acting submissive? And if wolves have pack leaders then how come no one wolf leads the pack at all times when they travel, and conflicts are usually won by a "submissive" female?
Ultimately, I think that striving to be a better dog owner is what it's all about.
Reasonable people will discuss techniques within reasonable parameters. Beyond that, it's just misguided hysteria.
wallybella (NY) 9/17/2006 11:20:39 AM
Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled I'm not pro or against Cesar Millan, but I know he takes on alot of dogs FOR FREE that no one else wanted b/c of the dogs issues and Milan has been able to rehabilitate these dogs and make them adoptable. His methods may not work for all dogs, but he should be commended for his ability to rehabitate.
When I first got my rescue dalmation, she was extremely scared and skittish. I was told by several trainers in Manhattan that I would be better off "returning" my dog and I shouldn't feel bad about it. I did not receive training with Ceasar's Center, but the people at his center were wonderful and gave me great advice and recommendations. They modified their advice according to the type of issues the dog may have and they recommended a great trainer.
Although each day is a new day for my dog, she is striving to become a successful member of dog and people society. I am a proud doggy mom and I'm grateful that I did not take the advice of some trainers of "returning" my dog.
irish red (NY) 9/17/2006 11:34:36 AM
Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled I think you should not judge Cesar Milan, we all know he is a true animal lover, he only is there to help the dogs, "sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind" The dog in question has to be taught that it has to behave in a human world. People who have problems with his methods either let their dogs rule or they have a well behaved dog. We should let the man do his vocation and remember all the dogs that us human's have disturbed mentally and physically that he has sucessfully rehabilated.... Way to go Cesar !!!!
Lee Charles Kelley (NY) 9/17/2006 12:17:41 PM
Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled I agree that Cesar should be commended for working with troubled animals. But he should also be taken to task when he's dead wrong about some of the things he says. His methodology may work well with some dogs (or seem to), but it has nothing to do with the reasons he gives because his view of "pack psychology" is flat-out wrong.
Ask yourself this: if a dog who walks ahead of his owner thinks he's the pack leader, or "alpha", as Cesar constantly asserts, then why in a real pack does the breeding male not walk ahead of the other pack members all the time? Why does the breeding female actually take the lead more often than her mate? And why are their offspring allowed to take the lead whenever they feel the need to do so? Who's right, Cesar Millan or the members of a real wolf pack?
Do I think dogs should be allowed to walk ahead of their owners? To me it doesn't matter as long as your dog isn't pulling and enjoys walking next to you.
LCK
nyctexan (NY) 9/18/2006 10:32:46 AM
Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Hi I'm new to the group. My husband and I own a 2 1/2 year old Rottweiler/Shepherd mix, named Romeo. We got him VERY early (3 wks 3 days) due to his mother dying during whelping the litter. We found him on petfinder. Early on, realizing that because he was adopted, and we had no idea of his breeding or temperament (for example, we thought we were getting a pure Rott - which we'd always had - but then one ear started trying to lift, and the nose was getting very Pinnochio) we knew he was going to need training. Doing a web search we came up with Jeanna Jameson, who we hired and who worked with us for about 3 months. She was/is great, reason we chose her is her method is NOT food based training. If you're a dog, and presented with another dog, or a squirrel, or whatever distraction... which are you going to chose? Distraction or treat? We found Cesar about half-way through his first season, and found commonalities between the two as to method and reasoning.
An outcry over 'Dog Whisperer'
--------------------
Denise Flaim
Animal House
September 18, 2006
In certain dog-training circles, it takes something approximating courage to make the following statement, but what the hell:
Cesar Millan is not the anti-Christ.
It might surprise the average dog-owning Joe or Jane to know that there is a maelstorm of hostility over the star of National Geographic's "Dog Whisperer." On dog-centric e-mail lists, his advocacy of collar pops and alpha-rolls has led positive trainers - who advocate reward-based training instead of coercion - to verbally eviscerate him with a ferocity that belies the training maxim of "Reward what you like, and ignore the rest." The American Humane Association has called his training techniques "inhumane, outdated and improper." Even the kindly Nebraskans at SitStay.com felt compelled to put a disclaimer beneath his bests
Elena Gretch (NY) 9/18/2006 1:03:09 PM
Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Do I agree with everything Cesar Millan does or says? Certainly not. But you don't have to eat everything at the Sizzler buffet, either. Millan's exercise mania speaks to our suburban dogs, who often wreak havoc in dog parks because their social lives have been stunted by postage-stamp lots and stockade fences. Students of body language can spend hours deconstructing Millan's pivot points and postural inflections. He is talking to those dogs, but not with words.
I don't know if there is a great risk that the untutored or unsophisticated will copy Millan's more physical tactics, despite all the on-screen warnings "not to try this at home." As a friend of mine said on a doggie e-mail list recently, if someone asks you to demonstrate how to turn a screw correctly, "and if they then take the screwdriver from you and proceed to stick it in their eye, it is neither your fault, nor the screwdriver's fault."
I don't know how one effectively saves idiots from themselves. What I do know is that a life with dogs i
Elena Gretch (NY) 9/18/2006 1:04:57 PM
Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled I don't know how one effectively saves idiots from themselves. What I do know is that a life with dogs is a process, one that ideally leads us away from overtly physical techniques like Millan's, and toward the more motivational and reward-based ones of the positive trainers I admire.
But I also know that many newbie owners aren't ready for positive training: The lingo baffles them, the sometimes self-righteousness of the movement repels them.
You have to walk before you can run, and therein Millan's appeal: He shows us - admittedly, with a ginsu knife rather than a scalpel - that something has gone wrong in our relationships with our dogs. About that, at least, we should listen.
WRITE TO Denise Flaim, c/o Newsday, 235 Pinelawn Rd., Melville, NY 11747-4250, or e-mail denise.flaim@newsday.com . For previous columns, www.newsday.com/animalhouse
Thanks for the article. The screwdriver analogy is off-base though. We're not talking about using tools for a purpose they weren't invented for, we're talking about the fact -- and it is a fact -- that despite whatever gifts Cesar Millan has as a trainer (or rehabilitator), his view of canine psychology is dead wrong.
Still, if we were to follow the screwdriver analogy, we could say that it's a tool invented for the purpose of attaching screws to wood. Then Cesar comes along and shows us how to use a hammer to force the screws into the wood instead. That's fine, I suppose, if you don't have a screwdriver, or don't know how to use one. And perhaps you'll got some kind of result that way.
But where Cesar really "screws" up, is when he tells us that the screws LIKE being hammered into the wood because it's part of their pyschology. In other words, his only rationale for using fear and force is that it's based on how a real pack behaves, which simply isn't true. The pack is about harmo
Unfortunately, many of the people who are attacking Millan are doing so for the wrong reasons. They're saying that his methods are inhumane. Maybe they are. I think the Gentle Leader is inhumane. In Japan spaying and neutering is considered inhumane. It's all in your perspective.
But I believe that if you point out the flaws in Millan's philosophy you'll reveal the truth about his methods. But since Ian Dunbar and Nicholas Dodman and others are still believers in the myth of the canine social hierarchy, they're focusing on the wrong part of the argument with Millan. (I don't think it helps their case any that they don't seem to be able to solve severe behavioral problems without the use of drugs, either; it's this overall ineffectiveness of operant conditioning methods that, I think, gives Cesar's methods most of their cachet.
At least that's how I see it.
LCK
LuvMyLeeLee (NY) 9/21/2006 2:12:47 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled To dramuze and Black dog- thanks so much.This is exactly how I see it. Some of these trainers on here could not possibly handle what Cesar can handle. Whether they want to admit it or not. They would recommend euthanizing an aggresive 140lb rottweiler , and seeing no other ways to it. The fact remains Cesar is a celebrity for his skills, and the fact that he didnt spend years in school for it is amazing. Some people are just destined.. and I def. feel Cesar is one of them.
CM is a celebrity because Oprah Winfrey, a true judge of K-9 behavior, thinks he's a good trainer and put him on her show. Ophra also thinks a lot of crappy books are good . . . and a lot of people agree with her.
pugpug221 (NY) 9/21/2006 2:55:08 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Hi everyone! First of all, regarding the last posting, Cesar was around waaaay before he worked with Oprah's dogs, and if u did any research, Oprah is not the one who started him doing celebrity clientele. It was Jada Pinkett Smith who got him involved with the celebs. He is well known for working with Oprah, because she is a high profile client. That however, does not define him.
I have found some very interesting things written about cesar on this post, that i have never read about nor seen on the show, so i cannot comment on those things b/c i do not know if they are true or not. The media tends to overexaggerate things just a bit.
Regarding his training methods, from what i have seen, i agree with whomever wrote if you study his body language, you will see he is talking to dogs, just not with words. He has every single face and expression down. Not many ppl i know pay that much attention to their dogs.
I have worked with dogs for many years, and I disagree that rolling a dog on its back is cru
pugpug221 (NY) 9/21/2006 2:59:12 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled is cruel or inhumane. Most of the time, i give a "no" and a look, and they roll right over for me. I do not consider myself a dominant leader, but they do. They submit to me, and they are not sad or scared at all. I have never been bit by a dog for rolling it over on its back. Nor has any dog shyed away from me afterwards.
As for cesar's pack theory, i do agree. There is a dominant leader, and as most of you have stated, it is predominately a female. Whats the big deal? Cesar never said that the pack leader was male! But there is a "leader" in the packs, but it is not so apparent as many of you make it seem cesar says. The point of a pack is just that- its a pack. They work together, but there are rules and boundaries (and limitations). They do keep each other in line...how else does a pack survive? As i said, they work together.
pugpug221 (NY) 9/21/2006 3:02:56 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled A majority of you also say that cesar does not use positive reinforcement. Where the heck do u get that from? Because he doesn't use food/treats as motivation? Um, right. Cesar praises his dogs, gives them attention, and doggie massages, etc, when a dog has worked for it, or is doing what he wants it to do (sitting down, altering the previous behavior, etc). That IS positive training methods. Anyone remember the episode where Emily the bulldog is running with him while he's on the skateboard? "good girl emily, thats my girlfriend. that a girl emily". No, your right. I guess that isnt positive???.....
pugpug221 (NY) 9/21/2006 3:08:10 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled The treadmill? Yes it is dangerous....without supervision. Cesar himself was not involved in the incident. Unfortunately, there are many dog-related places that have terrible things happen to their pooches, due to staff, not necessarily the owner or manager. Treadmills are actually a great exercise machine for dogs, so long as they are supervised. Why do so many people think it is cruel? Letting your dog burn off excessive energy that leads to separation anxiety and molding being chewed off doors? But wait- for the good 70% of NY dog owners- its not cruel to lock your dog up in an apt all day? Mmmhmm. And those pups that hopped onto treadmills without him doing a thing? Like Emily (sorry- shes a pit, not a bulldog...mixed up the pooches) did when she got home? ran for the treadmill.
pugpug221 (NY) 9/21/2006 3:15:20 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Cesar also as LCK says, is not dominant/agressive. He is dominant in a way, but aggressive? I think not. Maybe that's your perception, and thats ok. BUT, his methods increasing the risk of a child bitten? Absolutely not. Obviously LCK did not watch anything c.m. does. The dog doesnt learn to just behave around cesar. CM "forces" dogs to deal with their behavioral issues. Remember the garden hose? Dog whose afraid of water? Dogs scared to walk down the street? They had to deal with it to get over it. The dogs also are not punished- where did u get that? He has never walked away or 'punished' a dog...he is v. patient and continues to work, even if he is bitten. So unfortunately, there is no logic in that post. At least to me. And i do more than just train dogs.
greydog (NY) 9/21/2006 3:27:22 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled There is nothing “amazing” about Mr. Milan and his dated training methods. You are insulting an industry which specialized in treating behavior problems on a regular basis. Aggression is NOT an uncommon phenomenon in dogs and there are plenty of capable, knowledgeable people out there who see more then their share of aggression cases and are using behavior modification methods that help these animals stay with their human caretakers. What do you think we do most of the time? Fix house-training problems? Milan’s over-the top aversive methods make for good, dramatic TV viewing. Trouble is that with very few exceptions, punishment/correction based methods that Mr. Milan favors work fast and on the spot and on a short term basis only. It takes time, patience and true understanding of dogs in order to successfully rehab an aggression case and it’s not done by yanking dogs around on a choke chain, alpha rolling them, or sticking dogs on a treadmill to the point of exhaustion. His methods are nothing more then thi
greydog (NY) 9/21/2006 3:28:15 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled then thinly veiled animal abuse. Mr. Milan is akin to a politician, has “charm and charisma” and promises you short term solutions to big problems. Progressive animal shelters around the county constantly deal with dogs who are just like ones you see on the dog whisperer TV show. Many of these dogs are rehabbed without using Mr. Milan’s punitive methods.
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Hi pugpug
I work in the industry too and I am insulted by people saying that Mr. Milan and his dated methods are what "real " trainers use. I am also insulted when I hear that "other trainers won't go near some of the dogs he does", (we have and we do). It was not a personal attack directed at you, although you might see it that way. And I never said you had "charm and charsima".
Not all other trainers wont go near some of the dogs, i do realize that there are trainers that do try and rehabilitate. I have done it too.
Also, as for "real" trainers using his methods, i dont necessarily agree with that. I feel that different training methods work with different dogs, and im sure that simple training (sit stay, etc) and clicker training work with some dogs. I believe though that cesar's methods work well with certain dogs also- but is not necessarily meant for every dog.
I think everyone needs to realize cesar is not the only trainer out there- and his methods are not the only ones that work! I am pro-cesar, but pro-training also. Each pooch is individual, and has individual needs, physically and mentally.
It seems you and I have different definitions of what is and isn't punishment. Cesar has said that he uses his fingers to "bite" a dog: hand held flat, fingers extended, and jabbing at the animal. "If the dog can bite me, why can't I bite him?" asks Cesar.
"Um, because you're not a dog?" says I.
Jabbing the dog is punishment. So is the alpha roll. So is the jerk on the choke chain.
As for the alpha roll, that's a behavior that supposedly mimics something done in a real wolf pack, but IT ISN'T TRUE. In real wolf packs dominance displays are rare and only take place over how to disburse food to the young. (The female usually wins by acting "submissive".)
A real alpha roll has nothing to do with relationships between pack members, it's a behavior that is sometimes exhibited when a wolf encounters an enemy from another pack, not a friend. Dogs are meant to be our friends, not our enemies. Besides, the other wolf is never forced onto his back, he rolls over on his own.
Dogs are meant to be our friends? no, LCK. Dogs are meant to be our dogs.
Lee Charles Kelley (NY) 9/21/2006 3:57:55 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Well, you may think dogs are meant to be our dogs, not our friends, but I would suggest that that's probably a minority opinion. Either way, we shouldn't be treating dogs as if they're our enemies, which is what the alpha roll is based on. IT IS NOT BASED ON PACK BEHAVIOR, IT'S BASED ON ATTACK THE ENEMY BEHAVIOR.
And it's a simple truth that when you act aggressively toward a dog -- jabbing him with your fingers, rolling him on his back, you're teaching him that it's okay to act aggressively toward anyone who is smaller and weaker than he is. Such methods are not in any way based on real pack behavior, and DO have the potential to create a dog who bites children. I've seen this happen over and over. Have I seen it with the dogs Millan has worked with? No. But I've seen the results in dogs who were abused by well-known, professional trainers/authors who have an alpha mentality similar to his. I've had to undo the terrible harm done to these doggies by using a REAL pack mentality of being "non-dominant", and giving the dogs a safe, harmonious outlet for their aggression thru tug and fetch.
LCK
pugpug221 (NY) 9/21/2006 3:40:52 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled Cesar yes is in control. Because as with ANY training, consistency is the key. These dogs that go home and revert to their old behavior? are the owners being consistant? i would put $100 down that they are not. Oh well. I dont know if anyone cares about anything i've said, but i feel it is an honest opinion and i have observed many methods, and cesar combines more than one. I do not think he is cruel or inhumane, and as it has been said, i think he should be commended for working with last chance dogs. And whomever thinks shelters are rehabing dogs, think again. Shelters are still bogged down with animals from the hurricanes. No one has the time to spare to really rehab dogs the way they need to be. More places should be doing it, but they arent. But anyways, i hope some points were cleared up, and i wish that more of you would open your minds to something different (even if it isnt new). But as that other person posted, if u dont like it, dont use it.
Well, that's one of the differences I was trying to illustrate between using the dominance model (based on captive wolves), as opposed to using the natural model, which is what I use. In a real wolf pack no one member spends any real time or energy dominating the other pack members, controlling them, or telling them what to do. The pack is naturally in harmony (most of the time) because that's the key element to how they hunt, and without the need to hunt as a pack, dogs and wolves wouldn't form packs in the first place.
So when I work with a dog, I teach the owner how to establish harmony with the animal's instincts, knowing that when this happens, the dog will naturally fall into line and WANT to be obedient. He's not FORCED to obey, he ENJOYS doing it. Why? Because it satisfies his REAL instincts for harmony and group cooperation which are hard-wired into his DNA based on the way wolves cooperate when hunting large prey.
LCK
www.leecharleske
greydog (NY) 9/21/2006 4:12:02 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled I tend to agree with LCK, (for the first time!). There is an interesting phenomenon I always noticed amongst dog trainers who are relying mostly on aversive techniques. There is a tendency to see their methods as anything but punishment. It goes something like this, “since I am not causing real pain to the animal, it must be OK”. Punishment is presenting the dog with something that the dog considers unpleasant, (note the dog not the person considers it unpleasant). These types on training methods are simply unethical when there are more humane ones available. Aversive training methods are never without consequences. Dogs learn to associate the punisher, (that would be the trainer, owner) with an unpleasant stimulus, it can cause a stressful response and it frequently inhibit learning.
As for dogs not meant to be our friends, dogs are meant to be our companions. They deserve to be treated humanly. Dogs have to learn to look at their owners for guidance but if this is done through trying to "dominat
Establishing a good relationship with a dog means allowing the dog to learn new things. It is not about controlling their behaviors at all times but it's about
setting limits. It's about focusing on teaching desirable behaviors. It's about reinforcing all desirable behaviors with praise, food treats, affection and play. It's about NOT reinforcing undesirable behaviors and having dogs earn what they desire. These are the terms that are
both humane and very affective.
I agree. I first noticed this phenomenon years ago during a PBS special hosted by "Uncle Matty" (Matthew Margolis). He was giving a dog some really hard pops on a choke chain, then saying to the camera, "This isn't hurting the dog."
In terms of causing lasting physical harm, he was right; he wasn't hurting the dog. But I doubt if he'd want to parse the meaning of the word "hurting" so cavalierly if he'd been on the other end of that choke chain!
LCK
pugpug221 (NY) 9/21/2006 5:01:55 PM
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled LCK: since i am v. open minded, i would like to read more about your theories before i further continue this conversing on the board. Where can i find more about what mehtods u use? Someone mentioned a blog or something...I would v. much like to read what you have written and learned in your career.
I have yet to write a book yet, but i am always looking to expand my knowledge and techniques in dealing with the dogs i come into contact with each day.
As i said before, i am not here (as others are) to argue, just simply state what i thought/felt about cesar being shut down. But i am always willing to look at another POV.
The gist of it is this: Dogs are social animals because of their ancestral link to the wolf. Wolves are social animals because of the way they hunt. Therefore, the most effective training method should stimulate and satisfy a dog's hunting instincts. This is usually done by playing games that satisfy the urge to chase things and bite them.
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:American .... Oh well. I dont know if anyone cares about anything i've said, but i feel it is an honest opinion ..." - I DO! I really created a buzz just showing my love for the whisperer. I dont believe that jabbing fingers, and alpha roll are teaching the dog to be aggressive, etc to those who are under him.For those who read Cesars book- you will know that Oprah was not the person who started Cesar up. The moral of this all is that we can agree to disagree.I have never heard of dogs going back to the way they were- and if so , their owners weren't doing their end of the bargain.All in all, I do not see Cesar being cancelled anywhere in the near future
Maddie12 (NY) 10/12/2006 10:26:23 AM
Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled I think you all are crazy. I've used Cesar Milan technics and my dog is a very well trained dog thanks to him. Anytime a minority is doing something positive, someone always shoots them down. There are so many untrained dogs in Central park that causes many problems as well as New York, period. I think people are jealous. And most of the people that are jealous is other dog trainers. I know people who had their dogs trained by these so called trainers, but the funny thing is the dogs are not trained. I followed Cesar Milan for a year or more and my dog is doing fine as oppose to those other dog trainers. Get over it, Cesar is great. And to you other dog trainers, find a new profession.
newfy17 (NY) 12/19/2006 11:01:26 AM
Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled I totally agree with you, I'm a Dog Trainer and I use a lot of Cesar's methods, it seems like nowadays people are being propaganized by these so called "gentle" methods. I just don't understand it, injuries occur with these "gentle" methods. It seems like these new "animal behaviorists" like to bash other trainers, pretty disgusting eh?
caroljruby (NY) 1/2/2007 8:17:20 PM
Re:Re:Re:American Humane asks for Cesar Millan to be cancelled As I've stated before, these so-called dog experts are simply jealous of Cesar Millan. Years ago, I attended ASPCA Canine Good Citizen classes in Manhattan. The dogs there were supposed to have completed basic obedience training. It was a joke. They were not trained nor were their owners. The instructor only used treats -- no corrections. 50 years ago, I trained a wonderful dog who won lots of ribbons at obedience trials. We never used treats in those days. Dogs today are spoiled rotten just like kids today.
